Because Christianity is bigger than Biblical manhood or Biblical womanhood (Blog of Retha Faurie)

In his profile on the Internet dating site, he describes himself as a godly man who wants a godly, feminine, pretty, submissive woman. He is a believer himself, albeit one who struggles with a few things like pornography…

I wonder if a combination between …
a) a belief that his wife should one-sidedly submit to him
and
b) an interest in pornography
… makes for the worst kind of husband on the planet?

Logically, it will encourage a man to utterly believe his wife exists only for his pleasure, that he can treat her like an object if he feels like it. (If you are unfamiliar with what “submission” looks like in pornography, I will not enlighten – endarken? – you. Suffice it to say: it is ugly.)

He will also believe that God Himself endorses the idea that a woman exist  to do what he wants. As I see it – correct me if I am wrong – a man whose idea of submissionman-watching-porn comes from pornography and not Christ, and feels strongly his wife should submit one-sidedly, simply cannot be a caring partner. And since he does not see his wife as an equal whose spiritual input counts as much as his, she cannot really help him overcome his addiction and his wrong view of women.
Which brings me to a related thought: Considering the prevalence of pornography, the devastating effects it has, and the ways in which it pictures submission, I believe that it is criminally negligent for sites like the CBMW site, that promote the one-sided submission of wives, to not have many articles against pornography. Any Christian/ “Christian” ministry like CBMW should really – if they are interested in healthy marriages at all (even if me and them don’t quite agree what a healthy marriage look like) – talk about how devastating pornography is; recommend that complementarian women not marry a man with a pornography problem; tell women how to be a helper by standing up against this particular sin problem; and tell men how to view women.

Any Christian/”Christian” organization that promotes one-sided submission, without stating clearly and often – to both genders – how it differs from submission in pornography, lack, IMO, either wisdom or heart. Or perhaps the leaders in such an organization lack both.

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Comments on: "Is this the worst kind of husband in the world?" (20)

  1. Retha,
    I have always been sickened by the comp over obsession with the sins of a unsubmissive wife while sweeping under the rug or glossing over the sin of pornography.
    It is another disgusting display what their view implies.

    Either men are morally superiority over women.
    Or the sins of men are less sinful than the sins of women.
    Or that their hierarchy structure is way more important than any woman ever born an must be protected even if it means trampling innocent women.

    Any way you look at it, it is straight up ugly.
    No one should ever take CBWM seriously until they start taking on the ugliness that their doctrine produces in the presence of pornography.

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    • I would like to politely point out that not all people who embrace complimentarianism believe the same things. There are different branches and some of those groups are needlessly rigid and unbiblical. I believe in patriarchy and those individuals whom I associate with do not believe the sins of women are worse than men’s sins. I also don’t believe there should be any “glossing over” of pornography or any other sin/addiction. Pornography is absolutely disgusting. Men are not morally superior to women. Both men and women are completely equal in personal worth and value. The difference is that we were, for the most part, designed by our creator to occupy different roles. Of course, there are some exceptions to this (I was raised by a widowed mother, etc.). Any female who is being abused by her husband or father has every right to seek a safe haven for herself and/or her children. No man has a right to abuse any woman in the name of patriarchal authority. Any pastor that counsels a woman to endure abuse in the name of patriarchal authority should be defrocked. Mara, when you say things like “their doctrine” (in your last sentence). You are painting all of us with the same brush. You have every right to disagree with us but please be aware that we don’t all support the behaviors you listed.

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      • You speak of gender roles for most people. Where in the Bible are they? Most people are not married – the collection of children, teens, singles, divorced people and widows together far outnumber married people. It is even more so in patriarchal circles, where parents have many children. What gender roles are there in the Bible for most people?

        You also talk of patriarchal authority, do you know of any texts where fathers are told to rule their wives? Or their households? (The Bible calls parents – mothers and fathers – to lead their children, so we agree on that.) Households in Bible times often had several married siblings and their children living with parents/ in-laws and slaves too. A household thus had several men and telling them they all have authority in the household would probably have created chaos among brothers, fathers and sons! https://biblicalpersonhood.wordpress.com/2012/10/27/how-ofte-does-the-bible-say-men-should-be-the-heads-of-their-households/

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      • Fairlight,
        I would rather die single than live in a polyganous marriage. Any woman worth her salt, Christian or otherwise, feels the same way.

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  2. If a woman goes to a patriarchal pastor with the problem that her husband is addicted to porn, the likely answer is that she should submit more and pleasure him more so he doesn’t ‘stray into temptation’. Remember, every marriage problem is the woman’s fault! [/sarcasm]

    However anyone with a brain knows that porn addictions can’t be fixed with more sex because the two things are not on the same line. A body and mind that’s hard-wired into porn is addicted because of the chemical dopamine release. Long term porn usage usually winds up with him watching more and more extreme stuff in order to get the same ‘kick’. After a while the man doesn’t physically respond to real sex anyway, it’s not stimulating enough for him.

    Actually, since Jesus said that if a man looks at a woman lustfully he is committing adultery, does that mean that a man addicted to porn is committing adultery every time he watches? I’d like opinions on this idea, and correct me if I’ve misquoted the verse.

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  3. I do not think a man like the one you described is able to love a woman. Isn’t that called a misogynist? The terminology he uses for the type of woman he wants, i.e. “pretty,” that to begin with already signals that he wants an object. How many women say they are looking for a “handsome” man — in all seriousness?

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  4. Retha, please be very very careful of dating sites, even Christian ones. Anyone can say anything on there. But I do echo the other posts on this blog. The kind of man described here is dangerous and the Church’s double standard on men’s sins vs. women’s emulates the world.

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  5. I have no issue with wifely submission, since that is entirely Biblical but I would be very hesitant to enter into a relationship with a man who hasn’t fully overcome his addiction. Although, I do commend him on being upfront and honest about the fact that he is struggling with it.

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    • This site admits that wifely submission is Biblical, but the submission of all believers (that includes husbands) to all other believers (that includes wives) is Biblical.

      Any meaning of submission by which you cannot submit to all believers (by which, for example, a believing husband do not have to submit to his wife) is an extra-biblical definition of submission, and is not what God tells believers/ wives to give other believers/ husbands.

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      • We will have to agree to disagree on this one. Husbands are accountable to God and fellow believers within the church fellowship but they are not commanded to submit to their wives within the marital relationship. This does not give them a free pass to mistreat their wives in the name of patriarchal authority. Any man who abuses his wife and family should be dealt with both within the church and within the laws of our land.

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      • The plain meaning of the text is that all believers should submit to one another. Even if that was “within the church fellowship” any gethering of believers is church – where two believing spouses are together, it is church too.

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      • writerhelenrdavis said:

        Retha do NOT waste your time with this poster! She has extorted the value of polygamy on several egal blogs, namely charisma magazine. Any person who exalts polygamy has no right to speak on marriage. A husband can not love his wife in a polygamous relationship.

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      • While I am pro-family and pro-marriage…I do not “exalt” ( To raise in rank, character, or status) polygamy. I have in the past pointed out that many of God choice servants in the Bible were polygynists. I have also pointed out that there is no Biblical prohibition against the practice of polygyny. I am not married so it remains an academic question for me. Helen, please be aware that there is a world of difference between “polygamy” and “polygyny”. Polygamy is an umbrella term which includes polyandry and polyamory…both of which are immoral and forbidden by Biblical standards. There were only two acceptable forms of marriage practiced in the Bible, monogyny and polygyny.

        I recommend the writings of Dr. William Luck from Moody Bible Institute.

        And don’t worry, Retha….I won’t be commenting any further.

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      • I have never stopped you from commenting. In fact, I would love if you back up your view of say, gender roles for most people, with actual texts which we can use to see if there are gender roles for the majority of humans who are not married. I just get annoyed if people keep on insisting those roles are there, but never put their cards on the table and show them.

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  6. Retha >”You speak of gender roles for most people. Where in the Bible are they? Most people are not married – the collection of children, teens, singles, divorced people and widows together far outnumber married people. It is even more so in patriarchal circles, where parents have many children. What gender roles are there in the Bible for most people?

    You also talk of patriarchal authority, do you know of any texts where fathers are told to rule their wives? Or their households? (The Bible calls parents – mothers and fathers – to lead their children, so we agree on that.) Households in Bible times often had several married siblings and their children living with parents/ in-laws and slaves too. A household thus had several men and telling them they all have authority in the household would probably have created chaos among brothers, fathers and sons!”

    Retha…everyone has a patriarchal head. I am single without a father; therefore, my “head” is God. Children are to be obedient to their parents. Divorcees and widows/widowers would submit to God, as well. In a combined household, the husband of a wife would always be his wife’s covering and head regardless of how many people live in the home. The marital relationship is personal and not the same as the overall running of a combined household where space must be shared.

    The gender roles are seen throughout the Bible. The texts are there in both the Old and New Testaments. Google them if you want to read them. Wives who have children are to be first and foremost concerned with their marital relationship and the raising of their children. Nothing should be more important to them. This does not mean she can’t have her own interests and pursuits but that her family always comes first. It’s a question of priorities.

    And for everyone’s information, not all patriarchal circles have many children. Some do but many don’t. I only know two families who have more than four children. The “Quiverfull” movement may be popular for some people but not for all of us. I happen to believe that the Quiverfull concept is a misguided movement based on a faulty understanding of scripture.

    Like I said, we’re not all the same.

    God Bless you 🙂

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    • I see you give no Bible evidence for your gender roles for most people assertion. You simply claim it is “seen throughout the Bible” without giving one text. You then mention an alleged gender role of wives with children. Even if they have a “gender role” they are not most people, and their role does not prove a role for most people.

      As for your take on patriarchal authority, the view that God is the leader (the meaning of head, according to patriarchalists) of most people, but not wives and children, is one of the reasons why I know head does not mean leader in the two “the man is the head of the woman” texts. God not leading wives or children, but removing himself a step from them, borders on heresy. https://biblicalpersonhood.wordpress.com/2011/10/29/male-headship-%e2%80%93-is-the-very-gospel-at-stake/

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      • I’m replying a bit late….
        I never meant to imply that God isn’t the “leader” of wives and children. He is absolutely the ultimate authority for wives and children. Marital and parental patriarchal authority has limitations and those limitations are that if the husband/father is demanding that the wife or children do something contrary to God’s Word then the wives and children would have every right to refuse the demand. God trumps man always but especially if the man is wanting the wife or children to do something sinful. One text would be Ephesians 5 which defines the familial hierarchy. The mutual submission stated is for the Church in respect to other believers. The husband/wife relationship is dealt with separately with the wife being admonished to submit to her husband while the husband is admonished to love his wife the way Christ loves the Church.
        Lorene (formerly “Fairlight”)

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  7. I am no fan of Christian™ Patriarchy, but I hear some sections of it spoke very harshly against porn, to the legalistic extreme of sometimes regarding any man who ever saw it as un-marriable.

    While I don’t advocate such legalism, it is a relief that at least they did not want to mix pornography with their patriarchy.

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  8. Joanne Krom said:

    My husband and i met in church. Morals he has few. And 18 years of him has made me tired hurt and crushed. My children as well. He makes no effert to change just crosses his fingers and hopes hes not caught. Laughs when he is. And cares nothingfor me is an alcoholic and its condoned encouraged and purchased by his own mother. Even tho she was told by doctors he will die if he continues to drink. She gives him beer and drink after drink. She said “hes a big boy he can do what he wants”. I said no he has to stop drinking alcohol. For another 2 plus years he sat over there drinking all night. Oh and she also condones cheating with multiple parteners. Her husband died and she says he died alone in the house. Shes said that for 17 years. Then all of a sudden last year shes claimed she was in the house when he had fallen out of thechair from a heart attack. A couple blocks from hospital. My husband spent all these years giving almost all his extra time sitting getting drunk with her. Theres really no point anymore. 18 years im exhausted. Dont want to glue another item back together or pic up oyr childrens broken hearts as well as ours. I get no help but from my family who is constantly praying and giving financial and councel support as well as offers to go be a support to them. My family has helped so much my husband doesnt even know cause hes to far gone to realize it. I called a state agency to come help me anout a month ago the started coning last week. My husband all of a suddon stopped drinking now hes taking all the expensive things from our home day by day. Even the heirloom his son was given from my husbands grandfather. Cause his mother told him to. Did you ever see norman bates from bates motel or psycho i think is the movie. I got the gest of it but didnt watch whole thing. He basically does her commands. Like hes afraid of her.

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