Because Christianity is bigger than Biblical manhood or Biblical womanhood

I will start this blog entry with a complete list of every instance in the Bible where God, or anyone speaking for him, say men should be the heads of their households. Every single time that God instructs men – not a particular man, but Christian men in general - to lead their households, will be on my list. Then I will make a second list: Every instance where God tells men to lead their wives. (Before clicking on “read more” for my complete list, you can try making your own list.)

List 1: All the verses where God instructs Christian men to lead their households:

-

-

-

List 2: All the verses where God instructs Christian men to lead their wives:

-

-

-

My lists are empty. There is not one verse in the whole Bible where God tells men to lead their wives or their households. Surprised? You may have several candidates in mind for texts where this happen. But all these texts fail to meet these simple tests:

The instruction test:

Instructions have an “ought” to them. “He is a mechanic” or “he is head of his house” are not instructions. “He should repair my car, because I paid him to do it” or “I advise you to take charge at home” means that someone got instructions to do something.

The Bible mentions heads of households several times, but never says men “ought” to be the head. It never even teaches men, in general, are heads of households. It twice mentions men as heads of their wives, but it does not say, either time, that he is supposed to act in any way to make it true.*

The God test:

There is actually one perfect candidate in the Bible for words which tell men to be heads of their households.

 … every man should bear rule in his own house – Est 1:22 …

But this instruction was given by King Xerxes (Ahasuerus). King Xerxes was a heathen, and the Bible never implies he was speaking for God. It fails the God test.

I think if God ever said, in Bible times, that men ought to be heads of households, it would have radically altered the whole fabric of society wherever people took those words to heart. Instead of protecting the patriarchy of the era, it would have undermined it. You see, households were usually not restricted to one adult male and one adult female. A man often shared a household with his parents or in-laws, with his or his spouse’s siblings, and with male and female slaves. Out of the many men in a household, only one could be the “head of the household”. If God actually instructed men to be heads of households, God would have said something like:

Male slaves, run away from your owners and start your own households. Sons, do not share a household with your parents or brothers in adulthood, as I want each man to lead a household. – Moses 13:713

But God never said that. God never instructed men to be heads of households.

Ps: If you think I left out a text that instructs men to lead their wives/ households, you are welcome to add it in the comments.

——————————————————

Note

* Head” in “head of household” and “head of wife” seems to be the same word in English, but in Greek the term “head of the household” means being in charge, and does not contain the word for the literal head above the neck, while the expression “head of the wife” uses the Greek word for the literal head above the neck, a word that may not imply leadership.

About these ads

Comments on: "How often does the Bible say men should be the heads of their households?" (47)

  1. In the NT, the Greek word translated ‘head’ is kephale. Much has been written about the Biblical uses of this word. The linguist Susan McCarthy (sp?) has articles under the labels of ‘authority’ and ‘responses to Grudem’.

    Grudem claims that the word means authority when used metaphorically. Susan checked every instance and came to the opposite conclusion. We know that words are defined by their context, especially when used contrary to their primary meaning. Outside of the Bible in cultural literature, Susan only found perhaps two uses where the word for ‘head’ in Hebrew was used in a way that could possibly imply an authoritative use, however even those were possible to be defined differently.

    In OT Scripture there is one other use of head that contextually does imply leadership. It is a use where there is a comparison between being head and being the tail. This is contextually making a pretty clear point. In the NT all except one case, the uses of head imply connectivity, interdependence. The one case I believe is where Christ is said to be head over all authority. This would mean he is the source of all authority, the beginning of all authority.

    Thus you are correct that kephale simply means the head on one’s shoulders. It has not been used metaphorically to mean that one is in charge or lead.

    Very good observations in your article. Keep up the good work. :)

  2. Thank you, TL. “Head” as in “the husband is head of the wife” is kephale, as you speak of.

    “Head” in the Bible texts that, depending on the translation, speaks of head/ ruler/ master of the house/ household, does not have kephale as part of the expression.

    Kephale or not, there is no instruction in them.

  3. Good article! :)

    Considering the importance that some Christians place on the idea of “male headship”, it amazes me that the Bible never uses words like leader or authority or ruler to describe the relationship of a husband to his wife.

    The exceptions being Genesis 3:16, where it says that one of the consequences of sin was that the husband would rule the wife, and Esther 1:20-22 (esp. v22), where the Persian king Xerxes decreed that husbands should rule their wives. Christians, however, should not take their cues for living from the curses and consequences of the Fall or from decrees of pagan kings.

    And, as TL has said, the Greek word kephale, usually translated as “head” in Eph 5:23 and 1 Cor 11:3, very rarely means leader or authority in Classical and Koine Greek. (And possibly never in original, untranslated Greek.)

    “Head” can mean leader or chief person in English, but not in New Testament Greek. I’ve written about this here: http://newlife.id.au/equality-and-gender-issues/kephale-and-male-headship-in-pauls-letters/

  4. True. Even in Genesis 3:16, it doesn’t tell the male to rule over the female. It is showing a natural consequence. Because her heart is for him, he will (end up) ruling over her. It was never meant to be a command for the male or female that was to be followed. Just like the pains of childbirth, the changes came from deep within the human female body. It is not something that one can choose to put upon another. It became a part of creation.

  5. Seeing as the command for men to rule their households comes from a pagan king who was easily manipulated by those around him, I would class this ‘biblical’ instruction in the same category as the commands ‘Do not ask anything of any god or man, except the king, at risk of being thrown to lions’ or ‘Bow down to a particular gold statue when the music plays.’

  6. Yes, Estelle. An Internet friend of mine calls male household rule “Xerxesianity” – not Christianity.

  7. This is a very telling analysis. I have recommended it for the October Biblical Studies Carnival, being hosted by Bible Literature Translation this month.

  8. Ha ha, love your lists of Bible verses! Thank you for this. You make a lot of sense.

  9. What does this verse mean? “In the same way, you wives must accept the authority of your husbands.” 1 Peter 3:1 (New Living Translation). You probably have covered it somewhere on your blog, but I don’t remember coming across it. What is the Greek word for authority in that verse?

    • This verse does not contain a command or direction to husbands. That’s why it’s not on the list. It is directed to wives, not husbands. This is a common error, taking verses that direct wives and turning them into commands/directions to husbands.

      • Yes, I understand that, Terri. I’m just asking because I wanted to understand what it means. I often hear women telling other women to accept the authority of their husbands. I have come across some explanations on other websites since my post.

  10. Also, does the expression “head of the wife” appear in the Bible? I can only find the expression “man is the head of woman”.

  11. Anonymous, those are good questions! Firstly, remember that the New Living Translation is a paraphrase. A paraphrase tries to put into contemporary English what they think the verse means. An advantage is that it reads easily, a disadvantage is that every place where the translater misunderstood God – and don’t we all, sometimes – you will get a wrong message.
    1 Peter 3:1 has no word for authority in it. The NLT translaters read it into the text.
    The better translations say something like: “Likewise, wives, (be) in subjection to your own husbands”
    Likewise mean the same as what went before. What went before, from 2:13 onward, was that:
    > believers are subject to human instititutes of goverment, who are sent to punish evildoers and praise those who do good.
    > We are subject to goverment because of the Lord and as/ like free citizens, not slaves.
    > We should honor everyone, we should honor the king. We should fear (stronger than honor) God.
    > When we cannot escape suffering because of human authorities, we should take an example from the suffering of Christ.
    After calling goverment a human institution, not God’s, it say wives likewise are in subjection/should be in subjection – the tense of the Greek word does not make it a command.
    It is the same word for submitting/ being subject used among others in Eph 5:21, by which all believers should submit/ are subject to one another. 1 Pet 3:1 verse do not give the party you subject to authority, unless you want to say humans had authority over Jesus.

    About head of wife – Greek use the same word for wife and woman, and husband and man. Sentence context often tell us which is meant, for example “Joanna the wife/woman of Chuza Herod’s steward” refers to a wife in that Greek expression.

    Both “the man head of (the) woman” texts use a Greek version of “the” right before man, indicating a specific man. If a specific man is the head of (the) woman, it means that all men are not her head, regardless of what head mean here.
    With “the man” and “the woman” it is likely that Eph 5:24 refers to husbands and wives. 1 Cor 11:3 may refer to Adam as the source of Eve, or perhaps husband and wife, or the man and the woman. But translation is hard, and it is no surprise that some people translate as the man and some as the husband.

  12. [...] implement 1 Timothy 2:12.” Likewise, Retha at Biblical Personhood, asks, really, just “How often does the Bible say men should be the heads of their households?” And Lesley, a priest in the Guildford Diocese, at the blog Sermons in Hale with Badshot Lea [...]

  13. Anonymous, The NLT is biased against women in several places. Their paraphrase of 1 Peter 3:1 is one of those places. As Retha said, there is no word for “authority” in the Greek.

    http://newlife.id.au/equality-and-gender-issues/gender-bias-in-the-nlt/

    In Eph 5:23 it says that the husband is the head of the wife in English, because the context is marriage. In 1 Cor 11:3 it says that the man is the head of the woman in most English translations becasue the context is not marriage. Man/ husband is the same word in the Greek, and woman/wife is the same word in the Greek. Context determines how these words are translated into Greek.

    http://newlife.id.au/equality-and-gender-issues/kephale-and-male-headship-in-pauls-letters/

    • Thanks, Marg. I have referred to those links you provided. BTW, I have seen you somewhere in the blogosphere, you look familiar! Now I know your site, I am going to visit it more.

      • Anonymous, Sometimes I’m amazed that I keep bumping into the same people in cyberspace. It’s such a big place. But I guess if we’re interested in the same things it’s more likely to happen.

        I hope you’ll say “hi” somewhere on my site.

  14. The bible does not say men “ought” to be the head because they already are. They just have to start doing it. Going back to the mechanic example. You take your car to the shop and there is a man that works there standing outside. You don’t have to tell him to become a mechanic because he is already one. He just has to start doing it. I am not saying that women are to follow men around and be their little servants. God took the rib from Adam’s side and not the vertebrae form his back because man and woman is to walk side by side. 1 Corinthians 11:3 “But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.” It goes God, Christ, Man, Woman. 1 peter 3:7 “Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered.” Women are not only weaker than men physically but also logically. women are far more likely to do things based off of emotions than logic.1 Timothy 2:14 ” And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.” This is not just a one sided thing. Yes women are suppose to be subjective to there husbands. Husbands are suppose to love there wives as themselves. Colossians 3:18 “Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord.” Women are not suppose to do what there husbands says if goes agents what God says. Colossians 3:19 “Husbands, love your wives, and be not bitter against them.” Ephesians 5:28-33 “So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself. For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church: For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church. Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.” The husband is to love his wife as himself and the wife is to reverence her husband.

    • If a man should love his wife as himself, he should value her opinions/ wants/ views/ as much as his own and let it count as much in decision making.

      • Actually the husband is not the one who should be making the decision in the first place. The decision should be made equally by both husband and wife together. If they can’t agree then it is compromise. Each gets some of what they want and neither gets all of what they want.

        And my understanding after much study is that head means source. Paul was actually saying that their teaching in the church at that time which was that woman was created first was wrong but that man was created first.

        And qazwsx87, as for men being more logical I can make a list of women I know who are more logical than there husbands. And I know women who are single who are more logical than most men I know. If men are always the more logical ones then why do we have women engineers, judges, attorneys? Don’t these jobs require logical thinking? Furthermore some of the best homemakers I know are very logical which is why they are good at what they do.

        Also James says for everyone to “Submit yourselves therefore to God”. It also says in Matthew not to rule over one another (I think it is chapter 20). The New Testament also says be led by the Holy Spirit. I choose to be led by the Holy Spirit and my husband has to choose to do the same thing. He doesn’t tell me what to do. If he needs me to do something he asks and if I can I do and If I can’t I don’t. The Holy Spirit is my head and I can’t go wrong if I follow Him.

    • You hurt your case by stating that men are more logical than women. Also, note that if we’re going to build a whole theology around male headship in marriage, there ought to be at least *one* verse in the entire Bible directing *men* to be heads over their wives. We have a word for theology that’s based on not a single verse in the Bible: unbiblical.

  15. It is incredibly sad that the pastors of today do not teach believers how to read Scripture in context. Instead, they are taught that anyone can be a teacher. All one has to do is grab a few Scripture verses and string them together in whatever way seems best at the time. Then they add in a little bit of cultural rumors such as “women are emotional and men are logical” (read men are superior) and then we have men trying to hold women hostage to these incredibly anti-spiritual bondage messages.

    I may take time later to respond. But for now all I can say is what a poor example this attitude gives of Jesus’s message of healing and deliverance.

  16. qazwsx87, do you see that there is a difference between providing an alternative explanation and providing evidence for that explanation? Your statement, “The bible does not say men ‘ought’ to be the head because they already are” is fair enough as a theory, but it does nothing to counter the likelihood that the Bible does not say men “ought” to be the boss because there is no such teaching from God.

    In fact, I agree with you that a husband already is the “head” of his wife. But this is a statement of unity, not hierarchy. In English today, “head” commonly means “leader,” but that was not the case in first century Greek. Do you see the potential for error in reading a twenty-first century English meaning back into a first century Greek word?

    I understand the temptation to equate one’s teachers’ interpretations of God’s Word with the Word itself, especially when those teachers are more mature in the faith. But it is important to notice the ways in which a teacher’s paraphrase may differ from the text of Scripture (even if you believe the teacher is paraphrasing in good faith). For example, can you spot the differences between the statement, “but the woman being deceived was in the transgression,” and the statement, “Women are not only weaker than men physically but also logically”?

    Indeed, it is good that a wife reverence her husband… and it is good that we submit ourselves one to another (see Eph 5:21, KJV). But it is not good for us to “exercise lordship” and “exercise authority on one another; as Jesus said, “But ye shall not be so” (Luke 22:25-26, KJV).

    It is good to respect our teachers, but we must be careful not to follow them into error.

  17. To Trio3, Verity3, and anyone who read my last post.

    Let me clarify the statement that says. “Women are not only weaker than men physically but also logically. Women are far more likely to do things based off of emotions than logic.” I am not sorry that I said it but it was not explained in detail like it needed to be. Men’s and women’s thinking and processing information is very different. Men will think in a straight line. While women’s thinking is here and there. Men will logically think something through before he even starts. Women will just start and form it as she goes. I do not mean that in a rude way keep reading and I will explain.

    If you think back to middle school and high school most girls did good in English and literature. While the boys did good in math and science. Why is this? It is because women create things and men make things. In literature and English you get to read and write stories, things that where created and things you can create. In math and science are laws, (sound logic) things that can not be changed. That is why I do not like English (grammar) class it has rules (not laws). But for every rule there is an exception. But not so in math and science they are set laws that where here before God ever created man.

    A women will take an idea (not fully formed) and create something, allow it to form and evolve as she goes along. Men will take a fully formed idea (whether it is his own idea or on a blue print) and make something. Why do we do this? It is because women are process oriented and men are goal oriented. Examples are shopping, sex, and talking.

    (1) A good example of men vs. women shopping is http://thehoopla.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/mission-go-to-GAP.jpeg (2) A personal example is, I will not go grocery shopping without a list. My wife likes to go grocery shopping without a list. She like to go around the grocery section and shop creating a meal plan as she goes. I on the other hand will make a list and a meal plan before I go. I want to go in, get it done, and get gone. She enjoys the process. I enjoy the end result.

    Also in getting ready for and having sex. (1) To get ready for intercourse a women needs to have foreplay. It could take a few minutes to a few hours. It is a process that she enjoys. For men to get ready for intercourse he just need a few seconds to a few minutes. It is to accomplish a goal. (2) Now sex itself. A man will climax and ejaculate and that’s it will be several minutes to an hour before he can go again. Man enjoyed the end result. A women can have several orgasms during one sexual intercourse. Women enjoyed the process.

    (1) When a women talks on the phone she could talk for hours. When a man is on the phone he talks to communicate a message and that is it conversation over. (2) A man and a women go to the store while there husband and wife are still asleep. In 2 different families. When they come back their spouses are awake. Wife asks the husband, “Where did you go?” Husband “I went to the store. And got ‘this’ ‘this’ and ‘this’. And I saw Joe there.” Husband asks the wife (of the other family) “Where did you go.” I went to the store and got this to put with that. And I got this for that. And I went and looked at dresses. I saw the most beautiful dress it look like ‘this’ and ‘this’ and had ‘this’ on it. And while I was looking at dressed I saw Jane. She looked so pretty. Her hair was so curly and full. She had on the cutest outfit. And so on. You get the idea. Women will talk to create a bound. They enjoy the process of it. Men will talk to convey a message and that is it. (3) A women is upset that she and her friend had an argument. She comes home to tell her husband. He listens and figures out a solution to her problem. Resolving an issue, goal oriented. But that is not what she wants she just want him to listen to her and understand. Sharing or bounding, process oriented.

    Summery: I am not saying that men are smarter than women. What I am saying is their thought process is different. A man is trying to achieve a goal. So he will make out a detailed plan to get it done as quickly and efficiently as possible. Women on the other hand will, more often than not, have a basic idea and allow it to form from there. They enjoy the process of creating or forming something. That is why women change their minds so often. It drives men crazy, but that is just the way women process information. Yes, I still stand by that men are able to reason things out better than women because it is in our nature. It is how we handle things. Women create things. Men solve things.

    • Still just your personal summary of men and women. We all know many men and women who don’t fit your mold. You do, too, if you’re paying any attention to the people around you. Trying to force men and women into your mold by simply declaring they fit it won’t work. And it doesn’t bolster a scriptural case that isn’t there.

  18. qazwsx87,

    thank you for the attempt to clarify your statement. However, you are trying to delve into areas you are not knowledgeable. Those who do actual research into the brain’s functions and differences between men and women do not agree with you. It is true that the way men and women process many things (not all things) is different. This is because women have better connections between the hemispheres. Men tend to think in a more linear manner, while women gather information from many sources at once. This does not at all translate into women being better in English or language and men being better in math. Nothing to do with it. In circumstances where women have NOT been told they are not naturally good in math, they have excelled. And women continue to excel where there is interest. Same goes in English for men. Things like who likes to make lists and who doesn’t has nothing to do with gender, but about the many differences in individual personalities. All men are not alike. All women are not alike. There are no pink and blue mental boxes.

    You are thinking from prejudicial foundations. What you say is all a manufacture of your and other men prejudiced toward male superiority. It’s an old old story of how do the stronger convince the less strong to be ruled by the stronger. We all create things and we all solve things. There are not two individuals exactly alike in all of creation. Even identical twins are not exactly alike physically (though incredibly close) and often completely different in personality, tastes, and other things.

    Men are not better overall than women overall. The differences between men and women are compounded by the many differences between individual humans. Who we each are, our gifts, skills, character, personality, etc. is far more important than whether or not we are male or female.

  19. qazwsx87, I think you are taking your view of men and women, and then you assume God thinks like you, and He does the things you would want to do for the motives you want them done that way.

    You are, in effect reasoning that God gave men better gifts, gifts that mean more to reach good goals. That idea is not found anywhere in the Bible.

  20. I could as well reason the way men and women react over sport scores and whether their favorite team win and lose show men are more emotional and women more rational.

    Or that the way some guys want to look at sport cars while their wives know the family need a good, safe family car for the couple and their three little ones, is evidence that men are more emotional and women more rational.

    Another thing, do you really think the male attitude towards sexual activity is logical? Logic alone would suggest that using his hand is way more efficient (no time spent persuading/ picking up/ getting a woman in the mood; no emotional ties that could turn sour), still men want women. Logic alone would never connect sexuality to ego or closeness or even pleasure (pleasure is emotional, not a logical fact), yet men (and women) do.
    My, ahem, …logical conclusion is that sex is more than just physical.

    As for men being goal-oriented, the stereotypes says women are usually more goal-oriented in relationships (persuing marriage and permanence) than men.

    But then again, the above is as much stereotyping as anything you said.

  21. “Women are not only weaker than men physically but also logically. women are far more likely to do things based off of emotions than logic”

    Does the statement above mean to imply that women, by “doing things based off of emotions than logic” are weaker because doing things out of emotions is weaker “logically”?

    I’ve heard it put that way before, but I can’t really see the logic in it. Maybe what is implied is that a woman’s approach tends more holistic and emotional (right-brained) and men’s, linear, logical and rational (left-brained). If that is the case, neither approach is stronger or weaker. The left brain and the right brain approaches/strategies need to be integrated for life to be balanced.

    Moreover, some women are strongly left-brained (eminent scientists, eg) and some men are strongly right-brained (those in the creative arts). Some women enjoy long talks on the phone, some don’t, and they are usually married to men who do! My father used to love romantic walks and going shopping; my mother was pragmatic, and only shopped to feed her family. So it’s a very individual thing.

    But even if it were the case that men were generally “solvers” and women, “creators”, as asserted by qazwsx87, I don’t see what that has to do with the original post of trying to ascertain if the Bible does instruct men to be the head of their households?

  22. tiro 3,

    Thank you for your wisdom, intelligence and eloquence with words. Many women want noting to do with Christianity because of the previously stated beliefs. What woman would want to swallow this doctrine? Why would they be a part of something that told them they were less than? If men and women are a team, it would be best if they were both equally strong. You are only as strong a s your weakest link. Men should want strong equal partners. It is only insecure people who want to rule over others. I am sure this is not what God would want. I am shocked at how many Christians still push this doctrine.

    Sleepy

  23. Hi Jane, I wonder what Jesus will tell these men one day? He, who said His followers should not lord it over others? I was still reeling in shock from this post: http://undermuchgrace.blogspot.com/2013/02/family-dogs-get-better-breaks-than-do.html

    when I read yours. I really cannot blame women who leave the church (Jesus is not the church) because they want nothing to do with male lordship messages. I wonder why Jesus allow humans to hurt other humans like that?

  24. I think you all are taking what I am saying as being a stereotypical domineering man. My wife and I had an argument on this. It was actually opposite of what you might think it was. She told me that women are to live with their fathers and mother until they get married. And women are not suppose to work outside the home. I did not agree with that because growing up Americans we are told that we can do and be whatever we want. And about 3 weeks ago I believed just like you. That everyone is created the same and are permitted to do whatever they want. But that is a very atheistic (world) view. And after several days of studying the new testament I have learned that men and women (more specifically husbands and wives for this discussion) can not do, be, and act how ever they want. I understand that many men take the submit text to rule over their wives and treat them like slave and abuse them. But that is not what the bible says.

    1 Peter 3:1 Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives;

    Women should only be in subjection to their own husbands. A women who is in subjection to her own husbands can (by her conversation) led him to Christ.

    Ephesians 5:22-33 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing. Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself. For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church: For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church. Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.

    Colossians 3:18-19 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord. Husbands, love your wives, and be not bitter against them.

    Both text do tell wives to submit to their husbands but they also say for husbands to love their wives. 1st one says for men to love their wives as themselves. The 2nd one says to submit as it is fit in the lord. So wives should not do what her husband says if it is not in line with the will of Jesus.

    1 Corinthians 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

    Christ does God’s will. Man does Christ will. The women does the man’s will. Now I know women doing the man’s will may sound like domineering. But if the man is doing Christ will and Christ is doing God’s will then by the women doing the man’s will she is doing God’s will. By the chain of submitting.

    Luke 22:41-42 And he was withdrawn from them about a stone’s cast, and kneeled down, and prayed, Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.

    One might say that doing the will of someone else makes them weaker but the bible not only says those who serve are greater than those who instruct them what to do. And just in the aspect of women. The bible say that non God fearing women can destroy a man and a God fearing women and build a man up.

    Genesis 2:18 And the Lord God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.

    God could have made man an asexual creatures but he didn’t because man needs woman.

    Proverbs 18:22 Whoso findeth a wife findeth a good thing, and obtaineth favour of the Lord.

    Proverbs 31:10-12 Who can find a virtuous woman? for her price is far above rubies. The heart of her husband doth safely trust in her, so that he shall have no need of spoil. She will do him good and not evil all the days of her life.

    Proverbs 31:26-31 She openeth her mouth with wisdom; and in her tongue is the law of kindness. She looketh well to the ways of her household, and eateth not the bread of idleness. Her children arise up, and call her blessed; her husband also, and he praiseth her. Many daughters have done virtuously, but thou excellest them all. Favour is deceitful, and beauty is vain: but a woman that feareth the Lord, she shall be praised. Give her of the fruit of her hands; and let her own works praise her in the gates.

    To have a virtuous, God fearing wife is wonderful. The value of her is far above rubies. And now a days to find a women like that is even harder. So the value of her would far exceed all of the precious stones in the world. I am sorry that I said women are not as strong logically. Women are far stronger than men in articulation and communication. Humans are as logical as they will allow their minds to be.

    I mentioned earlier that my wife said that women are to live with their fathers and mother until they get married. And women are not suppose to work outside the home. Well the bible does not in anyway support a women is to live with her parents until she get married. But the bible does say a women’s place is to care for and guide the home. But she is only required to do this if she is married and has children. But women don’t have to get married. Paul even says it is better if we don’t get married. For if we get married we will focus on pleasing out spouse. But if we stay single we can focus on pleasing the Lord.

    1 Corinthians 7:32-34 But I would have you without carefulness. He that is unmarried careth for the things that belong to the Lord, how he may please the Lord: But he that is married careth for the things that are of the world, how he may please his wife. There is difference also between a wife and a virgin. The unmarried woman careth for the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and in spirit: but she that is married careth for the things of the world, how she may please her husband.

    But what if we do get married then the husband is to love his wife as himself and never to be bitter with her and go to work and provide for his family. The wife is to care for her husband and children and to submit to her husband.

    Titus 2:3-5 The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things; That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children, To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.

    Only 2 times does the bible say that men or women should get married. (1) If you like to have sex. (2) If a women is being a busybody and being in other people’s family affairs.

    1 Corinthians 7:8-9 I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, it is good for them if they abide even as I. But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn.

    1 Timothy 5:13-15 And withal they learn to be idle, wandering about from house to house; and not only idle, but tattlers also and busybodies, speaking things which they ought not. I will therefore that the younger women marry, bear children, guide the house, give none occasion to the adversary to speak reproachfully. For some are already turned aside after Satan.

    Genesis 3:16-19 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

    God does not change. The punishment for sin is in effect as long as sin still exists. Yes some of them have gotten easier but they are still in effect. Women can get an epidural but if they wait to long in the labor process they will not be able to do it. If the women decides to do it natural she will have pain. A women still has a strong desire for her husband. Think about those women who have an abusive husband and what does she say ”But I love him.” “He said he didn’t mean to or mean it.” “He says he loves me.” The new testament says the husband is (not ought to be) the head of the wife. It is still the husbands responsibility to work outside the house.

    In the text that refer to a women doing work it is always at home. And they are wives and mothers.

    Proverbs 31:27 She looketh well to the ways of her household, and eateth not the bread of idleness.

    Proverbs 31:31 Give her of the fruit of her hands; and let her own works praise her in the gates.

    Titus 2:5 To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.

    Now let get on the topic that started all this the “head”. The bible does not define “the head” but if you look at 1 Corinthians 11:3 “the head chain” I guess you could call it. God has authority over Christ but does it with love. Christ has authority over man but does it with love. Man has authority over his wife and does it with love. So it could mean authority. 1 Peter 3:1, Ephesians 5:22-33, and Colossians 3:18-19 all say for women to submit to their husbands. That sound like authority. But let say that it is referring to a literal head. What does he head do? It sees, hears, speaks, and thinks. So is the women to stay at home and never to go out in to society and the man is to tell her what is out there, to hear what others want to say to her, tell her and then speak for her, and then to think for her and make every decision there is to be made for her. The only other thing in the body left is to feel and the internal organs. So the women has the feelings. And like the organs works behind the scenes and is never seen. To be the head is not to be domineering. It is to be done with love and kindness.

    1 Timothy 5:8 But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.

    If a man does not provide for his family’s needs (to go out and work) he is worse than infidels. The issue of boys who look like men but act like boys is a growing epidemic in our county. Boys want to just be teenagers instead of being treated like an adolescent. There is a difference between teenager and adolescence. The word teenager came along in the early to mid 1900s and it means to be in teen years, 13 – 19. But to be an adolescence is not an age range it is a training stage. Adolescence comes form the mid 15th century from Latin adolescentem (nom. adolescens) “growing, near maturity, youthful,” prp. of adolescere “grow up, come to maturity, ripen,” from ad- “to” + alescere “be nourished,” hence, “increase, grow up,”. To be an adolescent means to be nourished and ripened into adulthood. But many “men” (if you can call them that) don’t teach their sons on how to be a man. So they either end up acting a boy but look like a man or they are effeminate and act to much like a women to be able to step up and be a man. Effeminate- “having feminine qualities untypical of a man : not manly in appearance or manner. marked by an unbecoming delicacy or over feminine.” This is not just being homosexual. It is also these men who are metrosexual. Males should not act more feminine or look prettier then their wives or girlfriends. The bible says to be effeminate is a sin.

    1 Corinthians 6:9-10 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

    We have got to stop teaching our boys “it is okay to act feminine because we’re all the same”. That is not true. The bible says men are to act like men. Not have the appearance or qualities of a women. Men are to go to work and support their family not all this stay at home dad mess. Men who do not work have to much time on their hands and become menaces to society. I bet if you asked the “men” at your local jail or prison if they had a job before they got arrested most of them would say “no”. So many women think their husbands are jut big children. Well they would not act like that if women would take off the “pants” in the family and let the husband ware them. Give him the authoritative responsibility. And yes I say responsibility it is not to be taken lightly like most men do. By treating their wives like slaves or unpaid servants and lording over them. The bible speaks to wives, husband, children, servants, and masters. In that order. And the wife is not in the same category as the servants. Husbands and wives are one but there has got to be someone who wares the pants and the bible says it is the husband. But it is to be done with love.

    1 Corinthians 16:14 Let all your things be done with charity.

    To say well this doctrine dose not apply to day. it is the 21 century. Well Christ nor his words changes

    Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

    But please don’t just say “your wrong” and leave it at that. Study the scripture.

    2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

    To: Retha
    yes, he should value her opinions/ wants/ views/ as much as his own and let it count as much in decision making. But if you look at any structure that is of people. There is that one person (either appointed or it just happens that way) who is the leader. And the bible says it is the man. The man is not to say go and do this or that but follow me. Because I follow Christ who follows God.

    To: Verity3
    You said “But it is not good for us to “exercise lordship” and “exercise authority on one another; as Jesus said, “But ye shall not be so” (Luke 22:25-26, KJV).” You can’t take two verses splice them and put two ends together. And try to make sense out of it. You must read all of those two verses for it to make sense and you also need to read the preceding verse, verse 24. And I’ll go ahead and toss in verse 27 to complete the thought. What even prompted Jesus to say that? The setting is, they (the disciples and Jesus) are in the upper room and the disciples start to talk among themselves. Then Jesus chimes in. Luke 22:24-27 “And there was also a strife among them, which of them should be accounted the greatest. And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors. But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve. For whether is greater, he that sitteth at meat, or he that serveth? is not he that sitteth at meat? but I am among you as he that serveth.” The word benefactors comes form the Greek word εὐεργέτης. It means “a title of honour, conferred on such as had done their country service, and upon princes, equivalent to Soter, Pater Patriae”. It does not say that you should not exercise lordship over anyone. It says you should not worry about having high ranking positions. But like I said being the head is not lording over or domineering. It is waring the pants in the family. Let the man be the man. And he is to do it with love.

    I would like to think all of you for committing on my post. Instead of just thinking “He is just some chauvinistic male. That like to domineer over people.” you all have really made me think about what the bible says and what I believe. And helped me to refine by belief on the topic.

    • Qazwsx87, said:

      “…growing up Americans we are told that we can do and be whatever we want. And about 3 weeks ago I believed just like you. That everyone is created the same and are permitted to do whatever they want. But that is a very atheistic (world) view. And after several days of studying the new testament I have learned that men and women (more specifically husbands and wives for this discussion) can not do, be, and act how ever they want.”

      Qaz, I am glad you left the “everyone are permitted to do what they want” view. That is indeed an atheistic and heartless view that befits rapists and murderers, not my view at all. (Even on being American, you speak for yourself and not for me.)
      It seems you at least know now that a) people cannot do whatever they want and b) God has the right to inform us on what is right. As such, you could even begin, this past 3 weeks, to comprehend that domineering and lording is wrong. Perhaps you can progress even further in the next 3 weeks. You may, for example, learn in the coming weeks that many of the views you espouse on the sexes are stereotypes and not universal truths; or read the sub-pages here: http://biblicalpersonhood.wordpress.com/christian-myths-on-gender-and-gender-roles/ and see how some of your current ideas are indeed myths, not taught anywhere in the Bible.
      I have to ask you not to continue going off-topic here (and for very long comments to make it worse), though. The topic here was never whether you are a chauvinist, and we never accused you of that. The topic is not submission verses that don’t say men ought to rule. The topic is not the belief that men and women are the same and everyone can do what they want – none here except you ever believed that.

      I’d suggest, as you have left an atheistic view a mere 3 weeks ago, that you use this blog to learn in quietness with all subjection. I do not currently allow you to teach or assume authority here, but to be in silence.

    • Perhaps I can give you one example of how the view you’e held for the past 3 weeks still need thinking through. You said:

      “1 Corinthians 6:9-10 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

      We have got to stop teaching our boys “it is okay to act feminine because we’re all the same”. That is not true. The bible says men are to act like men. Not have the appearance or qualities of a women.”

      If it is wrong to act effeminate, then women should not act effeminate either – we should act like men/ have the appearance and qualities of men. You read the text as referring to only men, while women should act in a feminine/ effeminate manner, but why? And even if you had a good reason to believe it refers to men and not women, I bet you do not know what qualities of manhood is thought of in the text, or even if the things you regard as masculine/ feminine were regarded the same in other eras. (Lace, corsets and high heels, for example, all started out as men’s fashion. Dresses were for both sexes.) What idea of masculine and feminine should be subscribed to according to the Bible, even if effeminacy is wrong and both sexes should be masculine?

  25. qazwsx87, you said we were responding like you were a stereotypical domineering man. I am not sure why you assume that – I was just responding to your words and don’t make conclusions about your personality or attitude. I don’t think most males are stereotypically domineering anyway. I do believe that males in circles that teach hierarchical structures or complementarian teachings do tend to feel entitled to assert power, and this does lead to a higher rate of dissatisfaction in marriage, as well as a higher rate of divorce, even higher than that of atheists. Which is a pity, since God intended for marriage to be a sacred institution that is to last a lifetime.

    qazwsx87 said, “So many women think their husbands are jut big children. Well they would not act like that if women would take off the “pants” in the family and let the husband ware them.” I wonder whether that is an assumption. I have not seen studies to show that. I don’t know of any woman that thinks that her husband is “just a big child”, although I know of some who have come to the realization that they are married to immature men who are either personality disordered or have severe character disturbances. These are women who have tried to let their husbands “wear the pants” but seen their families disintegrate due to being under the rule of a domestic despot. In these cases, giving more authority to their husbands is not the answer.

    I used to believe what qazwxs87 believes, and also what his wife believes. That was before I searched the Scriptures to explore what the Bible really says about those things. Then I changed my mind, as I could no longer support my previous theories Biblically.

  26. qazwxs87 writes:
    “1 Corinthians 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
    Christ does God’s will. Man does Christ will. The women does the man’s will. Now I know women doing the man’s will may sound like domineering. But if the man is doing Christ will and Christ is doing God’s will then by the women doing the man’s will she is doing God’s will. By the chain of submitting.”

    This is actually heresy. It is called arianism. It is the belief that there is a chain of command in the Godhead. It makes the Trinity into 3 Gods, instead of God the Father, God the Word/Son, and God the Holy Spirit. Jesus prayed many times that we would be ONE as He is one (perfectly united) with His Father. It is not the way of humanity, where human’s natural inclination is to individually seek to dominate the world and each other in various ways. In reality God the Father, God the Word/Son, and God the Holy Spirit all share the same Will (not 3 wills) the same authority and the same power. God is revealed to us in different aspects but it is the same God.

    1 Cor. 11:3 has been horribly misinterpreted by those who believe in male dominance.

    We all as humans are to do God’s will first and foremost. It is through the unspeakable sacrifice of the Son, the Messiah, that we are able to approach the throne room of most High God. All of us are able who believe. We are not to trust in the arm of flesh, but only in the Lord. Men and women must love and honor God first and foremost with their whole spirit, soul, body and strength. Then we LOVE our neighbor as ourselves. This is mutuality and godly unity.

  27. Yes, Tiro. The mere fact that I don’t understand the Godhead to be a hierarchy is another reason why I am sure head – kephale – does not mean in Greek what it seems to mean in English, and that we can translate the Bible better at that verse.

  28. Here is a very good series on this subject. Ladies, don’t get so upset when you hear the word “lead’ or “obey”
    [three links to Tim Challies removed]

    • Hi, Clarence. I, personally, am not upset at all at the word lead – I believe all adults, male and female, should lead where and when their gifts and knowledge asks for it. That includes in marriage.

      The topic, here, is verses in which men are told to lead wives/ households if they exist. I cannot see what make you bring in the topic “obey” – it was never mentioned in the original post? (I am not afraid of obeying or disobeying other humans when the occasion warrants, or being obeyed or disobeyed either, except in the sense that people who obey usually obey commands, and in too many cases commands have to do with lording it over others – what Jesus told believers not to do.)

      Your comment was in moderation because of the links – I now publish it without the Tim Challies links, as I don’t think those links are on my subject (the amount of times the Bible tells men to lead). But if you talk about the subject in a way that convinces me they are, you can link to them.

  29. What about reading between the lines? How do you know that wasn’t a gods test? How do you know you didn’t fail that test?

    • I don’t understand what you are asking, Shaun. “It fails the God test” – if you refer to that, it means we should test if God was the messenger behind the words I quoted, but they were from a heathen king to his heathen country, with no indication that God inspired his words then.

  30. To truth preacher: Your comment was deleted for being off topic and not avoiding personal attacks: You gave texts that tells women to submit. My question was not if the Bible tells women to submit, my question was if it tells men to lead. The two are not the same, or even two sides of the same coin: The Bible tells all believers to submit to one another in Eph 5:21, and all cannot be leaders. Obviously then, Christian submission does not necessarily mean to leadership. It is to all.
    You end with an insult: WEAKER VESSEL! in capital letters. This is clear evidence that you are not qualified to expound on the Bible, as the only application of weaker vessel in the Bible is: 1Pe 3:7 Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered.
    The text with the word weaker vessel:
    a) tell husbands to do “likewise”. Likewise what? Like all that the wife was told to do in the previous verses! But you deny the likewise, believe the commands to wives is not for you.
    b) Tells husbands to dwell with knowledge and give honour to wives- you used weaker vessel as a term of dishonour for someone who is not your wife, the Bible use it as a reason to (or no reason not to) give honour to your wife.
    Is your prayers hindered, you who use a glorified nickname no prophet in the Bible would call himself?

  31. Retha, these are indeed attacks, and Truth Preacher could easily learn to use the italics HTML tags. It isn’t difficult. If it were my blog, I’d ban him. There’s no reason why you should permit him to teach and usurp authority in your space.

  32. I must say Truth Preacher, the only slander and accusations I have seen on all these posts is from you.

  33. Anonymous said:

    Hmm, Retha, I did read Truth Preacher’s post, and all it does is simply repeat the positions that have been debunked by Biblical scholars such as Dr Philip Payne. It’s not really adding to your point by simply re-stating a position (as loudly as possible) that has been shown to be illogical and in error.

    Given that it also contains verbal abuse, it really should be deleted. And if any reader is not certain of what verbal abuse is, it includes more than verbal putdowns, it is marked by assuming the right to define the other person’s motivation, e.g. “I say you do this because you cannot answer my points AND YOU KNOW IT. So, to SAVE FACE, you delete and falsely accuse me.” That’s a person coming from an one-up position trying to tell you he knows your mind, and he probably can’t even see it because he thinks has a right to do so since you are a “feminist” and you are “wrong”.

    • Yep, thanks. It was also, except for being rude and off topic, directly against the blog commenting rules, top right: Please … avoid … speculations on the … motives of the blog writer or other commenters.

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s

Tag Cloud

Follow

Get every new post delivered to your Inbox.

Join 105 other followers

%d bloggers like this: